Me - I guess, for starters, I should begin with this word "faith" which is our focus and the meaning it has for you.... I'm going to assume that as a "person of faith" - this faith of yours gives you something that sets you apart in some dramatic way from those who lack faith...
Him - Well, yes...
Me - Well...granted I'm grappling for a starting point to this conversation - so please feel free to correct me - but what I mean is that faith must provide you with some inner feeling of confidence, security, re-assurance, peace of mind - the knowledge that your life is on track - that you are in a good path...The implication being that those with faith are in possession of something that makes them uniquely advantaged...while non-believers are viewed as inadequate because of their reluctance to believe...
Him - Well - I suppose you could frame it that way but then you almost make it sound like an ego-driven competition...
Me - But don't the faithful hold up their faith as something as a benefit which they hope to impart to others...
Him - People of faith approach faith like any other natural proclivity...it's something that belongs to human beings as such...There's something weird about people claiming they have nothing to believe in...But such is the state of culture these days...
Me - So really, you're trying to show the people without faith that they're missing out on something...
Him - We all believe in something...We trust, we accept, we emulate, we connect, we put our trust in something larger, bigger, better, higher than ourselves...I think when it comes to non-believers there's a little bit of denial going on...
Me - Oh...So everyone is looking for a faith of some sort...to keep them inspired...But hasn't unbelief become a kind of badge of honor for some people? Doesn't it inspire them the way you say that faith inspires you...
Him - Well if you're saying that anti-theological ire can motivate - I suppose, but isn't that rather perverse...
Me - But if it gives them purpose and direction...
Him - What I know is that faith - the right kind of faith - gives me, gives all of us really (when properly understood) - direction and purpose, as you say, but even more than that - an anchor, a grounding...a foundation for identity...Who am I without faith?What kind of person would I be if I stopped believing? Can nonbelievers claim that for themselves?
Me - In terms of identity, I think they could...But their fatal flaw would be - despite this outer confidence of their - which on some level parallels or masquerades as faith...
Him - would be that....On the surface, yes....there would appear to be similarities, but underneath, I maintain that such a person is lost... restless... anxious, dissatisfied...
Me - Well it seems to me one should perhaps distinguish the lost soul who craves some sort of religious faith from the atheist or skeptic who finds meaning by resisting your brand of faith...
Him - Oh ...I don't think we need to distinguish the two...The latter is simply a better actor than the former...
Me - Okay - fine, but let's make "faith" a little more concrete, shall we.... Let's get at what the "right kind of faith" by your definition would involve...
Him - Very well then...proceed...
Me - What I mean is.... is it enough that a person says "I have faith...." when what they mean by that is only that they believe in Fate or some notion of cosmic justice...When God amounts to a shadowy, impersonal force....a source for Nature's laws....who really has interest in us as creatures...
Him - Now that seems to me to be a cop out - a very tepid form of belief...
Me - And why is that?
Him - Well, what does that require of a person - to say I believe in Fate - what will be, must be...?
Me - Doesn't that represent some kind of attitude to guide a person through Life?
Him - I suppose but isn't that rather weak?
Me - So then, would it be enough to say, I believe in God, some higher intelligence guiding the laws of nature and the course of human events....But beyond that....
Him - Beyond that is where faith must begin....
Me - So more is required....
Him - Because faith is being in relation to...There is no pleasant neutrality involved...God is not some lowly, impersonal force, akin to ether or gravity or tapioca pudding...
Me - God makes demands on us...God has dealings with us...God has expectations...
Him - Of course, of course, how is that not obvious???
Me - If I said that the law of the universe are marked by an intelligence that is separate from us and no doubt higher - isn't that enough of a belief to give me some comfort....
Him - No in fact - I see that as woefully inadequate...
Me - So faith, obliges me to believe in a God who has dealings with me, who cares about me, who watches over me, and judges my actions and has a plan for my Life...
Him - But of course...
Me - And why is that the only faith that counts?
Him - Because it is the only kind that bestows absolute value ...A God who is unaware and uncaring - is a strange way to describe the Creator - A God who is watching over us and listening so to speak (not like some celestial robot with surveillance camera and recording devices) but rather God who takes notice of us and the drama of our earthly existence ....this is the type of God that gives meaning to us - otherwise we would be like little bugs, obscure dust particles, destined for oblivion...
Me - And presumably - by having faith implies entering a path to happiness and self-betterment...
Him - A path to holiness and perfection...
Me - And is it reasonable to expect then that the "faithful" have the advantage when it comes to virtue and saintliness over the majority of lax, unfaithful souls?
Him - Are we better than you skeptics - is that what you're asking?
Me - By whatever measure you care to offer - In what sense is there an advantage to believing?
Him - Well - there is the issue of what is true - and whether it is better to affirm the fact of God's existence and our dependence on Him...
Me - Okay - and from this initial acknowledgement of God or the "absolute reality" - the "Truth" that underlies everything there follows certain advantages ....So what are they?
Him - Well -- greater happiness for one...as we said before...having a sense of security and a grounding....a sense of direction...as well as a sense of moral obligation.... I take it you aren't against any of these things....
Me - Not at all
Him - Good - with this heightened sense of moral obligation - comes a tendency to obey the laws, to be a good citizen, a good neighbor, a true friend, a loyal spouse - all of the aspects of character where we would aspire to some degree of excellence...
Me - Faith helps with that?
Him - Of course - Would it make sense to say that faith warped a person or led them astray?
Me - Well you've sort of asked my next question for me...What do we do with those cases where faith does not seems to change a person for the better - but in fact makes them worse - renders them fearful, neurotic and guilt-ridden, introduces a stringent rigidity to their thought process, turns them into sectarians, fanatics, extremists....narrow minds engaged in magical thinking...?
Him - That's quite an accusation....
Me - Will you deny that some of the self-described "faithful" fall into these categories?
Him - We still have yet to distinguish "true" and "false" piety ...
Me - It's interesting how "false prophets" and "fraudulent religions" are so easy to identify - in that they always seem to be practiced by other people...
Him - Quackery exists in medicine and other fields...You see my point?
Me - Yes - but assuming we have zoned in on the correct faith - yours in particular - would you go so far as to make the claim that your co-religionists stand out from the rest of humanity...?
Him - Of course, of course....I've already mentioned the satisfaction ...the security, the sense of hope that faith brings....as opposed to people who are aimless and in despair...Does that mean nothing to you?
Me -
Him - Well, yes...
Me - Well...granted I'm grappling for a starting point to this conversation - so please feel free to correct me - but what I mean is that faith must provide you with some inner feeling of confidence, security, re-assurance, peace of mind - the knowledge that your life is on track - that you are in a good path...The implication being that those with faith are in possession of something that makes them uniquely advantaged...while non-believers are viewed as inadequate because of their reluctance to believe...
Him - Well - I suppose you could frame it that way but then you almost make it sound like an ego-driven competition...
Me - But don't the faithful hold up their faith as something as a benefit which they hope to impart to others...
Him - People of faith approach faith like any other natural proclivity...it's something that belongs to human beings as such...There's something weird about people claiming they have nothing to believe in...But such is the state of culture these days...
Me - So really, you're trying to show the people without faith that they're missing out on something...
Him - We all believe in something...We trust, we accept, we emulate, we connect, we put our trust in something larger, bigger, better, higher than ourselves...I think when it comes to non-believers there's a little bit of denial going on...
Me - Oh...So everyone is looking for a faith of some sort...to keep them inspired...But hasn't unbelief become a kind of badge of honor for some people? Doesn't it inspire them the way you say that faith inspires you...
Him - Well if you're saying that anti-theological ire can motivate - I suppose, but isn't that rather perverse...
Me - But if it gives them purpose and direction...
Him - What I know is that faith - the right kind of faith - gives me, gives all of us really (when properly understood) - direction and purpose, as you say, but even more than that - an anchor, a grounding...a foundation for identity...Who am I without faith?What kind of person would I be if I stopped believing? Can nonbelievers claim that for themselves?
Me - In terms of identity, I think they could...But their fatal flaw would be - despite this outer confidence of their - which on some level parallels or masquerades as faith...
Him - would be that....On the surface, yes....there would appear to be similarities, but underneath, I maintain that such a person is lost... restless... anxious, dissatisfied...
Me - Well it seems to me one should perhaps distinguish the lost soul who craves some sort of religious faith from the atheist or skeptic who finds meaning by resisting your brand of faith...
Him - Oh ...I don't think we need to distinguish the two...The latter is simply a better actor than the former...
Me - Okay - fine, but let's make "faith" a little more concrete, shall we.... Let's get at what the "right kind of faith" by your definition would involve...
Him - Very well then...proceed...
Me - What I mean is.... is it enough that a person says "I have faith...." when what they mean by that is only that they believe in Fate or some notion of cosmic justice...When God amounts to a shadowy, impersonal force....a source for Nature's laws....who really has interest in us as creatures...
Him - Now that seems to me to be a cop out - a very tepid form of belief...
Me - And why is that?
Him - Well, what does that require of a person - to say I believe in Fate - what will be, must be...?
Me - Doesn't that represent some kind of attitude to guide a person through Life?
Him - I suppose but isn't that rather weak?
Me - So then, would it be enough to say, I believe in God, some higher intelligence guiding the laws of nature and the course of human events....But beyond that....
Him - Beyond that is where faith must begin....
Me - So more is required....
Him - Because faith is being in relation to...There is no pleasant neutrality involved...God is not some lowly, impersonal force, akin to ether or gravity or tapioca pudding...
Me - God makes demands on us...God has dealings with us...God has expectations...
Him - Of course, of course, how is that not obvious???
Me - If I said that the law of the universe are marked by an intelligence that is separate from us and no doubt higher - isn't that enough of a belief to give me some comfort....
Him - No in fact - I see that as woefully inadequate...
Me - So faith, obliges me to believe in a God who has dealings with me, who cares about me, who watches over me, and judges my actions and has a plan for my Life...
Him - But of course...
Me - And why is that the only faith that counts?
Him - Because it is the only kind that bestows absolute value ...A God who is unaware and uncaring - is a strange way to describe the Creator - A God who is watching over us and listening so to speak (not like some celestial robot with surveillance camera and recording devices) but rather God who takes notice of us and the drama of our earthly existence ....this is the type of God that gives meaning to us - otherwise we would be like little bugs, obscure dust particles, destined for oblivion...
Me - And presumably - by having faith implies entering a path to happiness and self-betterment...
Him - A path to holiness and perfection...
Me - And is it reasonable to expect then that the "faithful" have the advantage when it comes to virtue and saintliness over the majority of lax, unfaithful souls?
Him - Are we better than you skeptics - is that what you're asking?
Me - By whatever measure you care to offer - In what sense is there an advantage to believing?
Him - Well - there is the issue of what is true - and whether it is better to affirm the fact of God's existence and our dependence on Him...
Me - Okay - and from this initial acknowledgement of God or the "absolute reality" - the "Truth" that underlies everything there follows certain advantages ....So what are they?
Him - Well -- greater happiness for one...as we said before...having a sense of security and a grounding....a sense of direction...as well as a sense of moral obligation.... I take it you aren't against any of these things....
Me - Not at all
Him - Good - with this heightened sense of moral obligation - comes a tendency to obey the laws, to be a good citizen, a good neighbor, a true friend, a loyal spouse - all of the aspects of character where we would aspire to some degree of excellence...
Me - Faith helps with that?
Him - Of course - Would it make sense to say that faith warped a person or led them astray?
Me - Well you've sort of asked my next question for me...What do we do with those cases where faith does not seems to change a person for the better - but in fact makes them worse - renders them fearful, neurotic and guilt-ridden, introduces a stringent rigidity to their thought process, turns them into sectarians, fanatics, extremists....narrow minds engaged in magical thinking...?
Him - That's quite an accusation....
Me - Will you deny that some of the self-described "faithful" fall into these categories?
Him - We still have yet to distinguish "true" and "false" piety ...
Me - It's interesting how "false prophets" and "fraudulent religions" are so easy to identify - in that they always seem to be practiced by other people...
Him - Quackery exists in medicine and other fields...You see my point?
Me - Yes - but assuming we have zoned in on the correct faith - yours in particular - would you go so far as to make the claim that your co-religionists stand out from the rest of humanity...?
Him - Of course, of course....I've already mentioned the satisfaction ...the security, the sense of hope that faith brings....as opposed to people who are aimless and in despair...Does that mean nothing to you?
Me -
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